religion

[vantexan]

if you want to save people from sin we have to stop committing big sins in the first place.

Then stop sinning. Sell your car, move into a commune, and go back to Europe after giving your property to Native Americans.

 

[Doublestandards]

But that's exactly what happened in the Soviet Union. Only the leadership and those who made the state look good, like top athletes, lived better lives. I think if everyone practiced Christianity, from the government on down, and I mean sincerely practiced it, then the super wealthy would be much less so and the very poor would be much less so. But there's a difference between everyone on the same page striving to do the right thing and people taxed so heavily that they may be solid middle class but no longer millionaires. You can always point to exceptions but many who achieve want that brass ring. If all their efforts won't make them wealthy because the government takes a huge share then most of them will stop trying. It was John friend. Kennedy who pointed out that when you reduce taxes and people can keep more of what they make then the resulting increase in economic activity will actually bring in more revenue than if they kept the taxes the same. You know what? Every time we have cut taxes that's exactly what happened. Government revenue increased. Unfortunately whenever revenue increased our government found ways to spend it all and then some. And look where we are now. Servicing our debt now takes 23% of our tax revenue. And we still print money to cover the rest which will take more and more to service our debt. Not sustainable.

Is there maybe a middle ground between communist Russia and the extreme wealth gap capitalism we have today?

Honestly if everyone lived a truly Christian life, or if even only the richest did, we wouldn’t even NEED taxes. But obviously most people don’t live that life, and we do need taxes

I’m just wondering how much wider can the gap be before the system needs some tweaking?

 

[vantexan]

the bible basically says its impossible for the rich to go to heaven. they would have to just be middle class to make it. i dont see how you can read that quote any other way.

you should be telling them to give enough money away to be middle class again.

There was no such thing as a "middle class" in Biblical times.

 

[vantexan]

Is there maybe a middle ground between communist Russia and the extreme wealth gap capitalism we have today?

Honestly if everyone lived a truly Christian life, or if even only the richest did, we wouldn’t even NEED taxes. But obviously most people don’t live that life, and we do need taxes

I’m just wondering how much wider can the gap be before the system needs some tweaking?

We have taxes for the common good. Fire and police departments, parks, libraries, roads, hospitals, schools. What you're talking about is redistribution of wealth. Taking from producers and giving to everyone else. It's not enough that the top 10% of earners pay more than 50% of all taxes. And if you taxed them even more there's still not enough to give everyone a good income. And imo no one is owed a great living. You have to earn it. But that's not what folks like @rickyb want. They think everyone can be wealthy with minimal effort. If you don't believe that then you haven't read Ricky's posts as long as I have. Before y'all tear down the whole system you need to brush up on economics. It's never worked that way and never will. Everyone can be Christians yet some will do better than others. It's not evil if it's legitimately earned. Something Ricky can't grasp.

 

[Doublestandards]

It's not evil if it's legitimately earned. Something Ricky can't grasp.

What is meant by the quote then of the rich having a harder time than a camel going through the eye of a needle?

And I agree with you a redistribution of wealth probably wouldn’t solve as much as people think. It reminds me of how many people who win the lottery end up going broke and having worse lives than before winning. You see it often too with children who inherit large sums of money. I’ve heard when the money is not earned, it only takes a generation or two to blow it . I do wonder though if there’s still room for improvement,!or maybe some redistribution in the form of higher taxes for the ultra rich. Like I said, would the ultra rich really be worse off being worth $500 million tops compared to $40 billion? Could we improve our society by doing so?

 

[vantexan]

What is meant by the quote then of the rich having a harder time than a camel going through the eye of a needle?

And I agree with you a redistribution of wealth probably wouldn’t solve as much as people think. It reminds me of how many people who win the lottery end up going broke and having worse lives than before winning. You see it often too with children who inherit large sums of money. I’ve heard when the money is not earned, it only takes a generation or two to blow it . I do wonder though if there’s still room for improvement,!or maybe some redistribution in the form of higher taxes for the ultra rich. Like I said, would the ultra rich really be worse off being worth $500 million tops compared to $40 billion? Could we improve our society by doing so?

Do you know what "the eye of the needle is?" In those days cities had walls around them. By law the camel caravans had to be outside the walls at night. There was a smaller door in the city gates called the eye of the needke that people could pass through but would be difficult for a camel. Not impossible, but difficult. And in those times getting wealthy often meant cheating others. Didn't have stock markets or crypto currency.

If you look at the trillions being spent annually you'll soon realize that you could take every penny away from the rich and not only isn't there enough but the next year you'd have little to take away. Seems to me a lot of this soak the rich idea is based on envy.

 

[Doublestandards]

Seems to me a lot of this soak the rich idea is based on envy.

“The only time you should look in your neighbor’s bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don’t look in your neighbor’s bowl to see if you have as much as them.”


I hear ya, and it reminded me of this quote. I do wonder though, at a certain point it would become impossible not to notice, when you have nothing and your neighbor seems to have everything. But I hear what you’re saying and I’m not saying I think you’re wrong

 

[tourists24]

if you want to save people from sin we have to stop committing big sins in the first place.

WE can't save people from sins. As humans we are going to sin. That's why salvation is so important. And why Jesus came here in the first place.

 

[tourists24]

the bible basically says its impossible for the rich to go to heaven. they would have to just be middle class to make it. i dont see how you can read that quote any other way.

you should be telling them to give enough money away to be middle class again.

Jesus came to us to make show us that anyone can make it to heaven; rich or poor, king or pauper. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is Billy Graham. He was a wealthy man. You can bet he is in heaven right now.

 

[oldngray]

Jesus came to us to make show us that anyone can make it to heaven; rich or poor, king or pauper. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is Billy Graham. He was a wealthy man. You can bet he is in heaven right now.

The point of the parable of the rich man was not that rich people can't get to heaven but for that man money was the most important thing in his life and creating a stumbling block. In no way was it meant to apply to everyone else with other priorities.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

 

[rickyb]

i think both of you mean well. It is a very interesting discussion.

If I were to play devils advocate (no pun intended) we could really get into the debate and say “what qualifies as rich?”. To a starving kid in Africa, the poorest person in America may be considered rich.

And @vantexan is right in that a lot of things in America that I appreciate so much came through capitalism

I do disagree in the idea that taxing the rich more would halt productivity however. Do we really think Elon Musk would never have started his journey if we were ‘only’ able to be worth $500 million compared to his $44 billion? It’s very hard to comprehend how much a billion is, let alone $44 billion, but I really don’t feel a truly Christian government would be comfortable with that level of wealth gap

They just do stock buy backs its not productive investing at all

Poor in america is poor. Poor in africa is poor.

Govt invented a lot of things too, usually through defense dept

 

[rickyb]

The point of the parable of the rich man was not that rich people can't get to heaven but for that man money was the most important thing in his life and creating a stumbling block. In no way was it meant to apply to everyone else with other priorities.

Dude that quote very clearly says a rich man cant get to heaven...

I can quote my favorite pastors for their take on it too

 

[rickyb]

There was no such thing as a "middle class" in Biblical times.

it very clearly says the rich cant go to heaven. So i definitely wouldnt be rich christian bc it looks like theres no hope. Im in favor of ppl donating their money to be only middle class

 

[rickyb]

We have taxes for the common good. Fire and police departments, parks, libraries, roads, hospitals, schools. What you're talking about is redistribution of wealth. Taking from producers and giving to everyone else. It's not enough that the top 10% of earners pay more than 50% of all taxes. And if you taxed them even more there's still not enough to give everyone a good income. And imo no one is owed a great living. You have to earn it. But that's not what folks like @rickyb want. They think everyone can be wealthy with minimal effort. If you don't believe that then you haven't read Ricky's posts as long as I have. Before y'all tear down the whole system you need to brush up on economics. It's never worked that way and never will. Everyone can be Christians yet some will do better than others. It's not evil if it's legitimately earned. Something Ricky can't grasp.

Producers are workers which capitalists depend on. Wat the workers produce the capitalists control and the pay the workers with it which is distrubuted poorly. Taxes are redistribution

Im in favor of partnerships. 1 person business. But no employee employer relationship bc im sure its too satanic.

Theres enough wealth in the world to end poverty.

Slavery which christians supported was evil. So is capitalism

 

[oldngray]

Dude that quote very clearly says a rich man cant get to heaven...

I can quote my favorite pastors for their take on it too

Taken out of context.

Not surprising from you.

 

[vantexan]

Producers are workers which capitalists depend on. Wat the workers produce the capitalists control and the pay the workers with it which is distrubuted poorly. Taxes are redistribution

Im in favor of partnerships. 1 person business. But no employee employer relationship bc im sure its too satanic.

Theres enough wealth in the world to end poverty.

Slavery which christians supported was evil. So is capitalism

Comparing capitalism with slavery? Really?

 

[vantexan]

Dude that quote very clearly says a rich man cant get to heaven...

I can quote my favorite pastors for their take on it too

No, it doesn't.

 

[vantexan]

it very clearly says the rich cant go to heaven. So i definitely wouldnt be rich christian bc it looks like theres no hope. Im in favor of ppl donating their money to be only middle class

No, it does not say that.

 

[rickyb]

WE can't save people from sins. As humans we are going to sin. That's why salvation is so important. And why Jesus came here in the first place.

Both religious leaders i looked at says salvation comes from social justice by overturning satanic systems of exploitation and inequality